Originally aired on Unscripted SEO Podcast – Listen to the full episode here
In our latest episode, Jeremy Rivera sits down with Melissa Popp, founder of Rickety Roo, to tackle one of the most pressing questions facing our industry: Is SEO as we know it dead?
Spoiler alert: It’s not dead, but it’s definitely not the same game we’ve been playing for the past decade.
🔥 Episode Highlights
“We should be more in the ecosystem… our value could be so much more than Google. Why are we tying ourselves to Google?” – Melissa Popp
“From 2010 to 2021 SEO was merely reverse engineering Google. That was it. That was our job. We can’t ignore other methods or other ways that search occurs.” – Jeremy Rivera
The Big Picture: SEO’s Identity Crisis
This has been “the longest year of marketing in a decade,” according to Melissa, and she’s not wrong. Between AI overviews, LLM integration, and Google’s continued monopolization of page one, the landscape has shifted dramatically since our last conversation just a few months ago.
The reality check: We’re seeing 1% organic click-through rates when AI overviews appear in search results. Let that sink in. If you’re still telling clients you’ll “get them ranked and drive traffic,” you’re selling yesterday’s solution to today’s problems.
The 90/10 Split: Enterprise vs. Everyone Else
One of the most important distinctions Melissa makes is recognizing that our industry serves two very different markets:
The 10% – Enterprise clients working at massive scale where complex query fan-out strategies and deep LLM optimization might make sense.
The 90% – Local businesses and smaller companies where basic content quality improvements still win because the competition is frankly terrible.
“Do I think that for a home service business in some outskirt of Cheyenne, Wyoming needs to be a whole strategy around query fan out and exactly the nuance of how LLMs work? Absolutely not,” Melissa explains.
From Google Reverse Engineers to Digital Marketers
Jeremy makes a compelling case that the era of SEO as Google reverse engineering is over. For over a decade, our job was simple: figure out Google’s algorithm, optimize accordingly, get traffic, make money.
That playbook is broken.
Now we need to think bigger. We need to become digital marketers who understand:
- How LLMs surface content
- How social platforms drive discovery
- How to capture users across multiple touchpoints
- How to integrate multi-channel marketing approaches
As Melissa puts it: “We’re having a midlife identity crisis as marketers.”
The Death of Top-Funnel Content?
Here’s where the conversation gets really interesting. Melissa poses a provocative question: Are we witnessing the death of the top of the funnel?
Think about it: If users can get “correct” answers from AI overviews, ChatGPT, or other LLMs, why would they click through to read your 2,000-word informational article?
“If you can get a correct answer in AI mode or AI overviews with Google, why would you click on the link to begin with?”
This forces us to reconsider everything about content strategy, user journey mapping, and how we capture value from our efforts.
The Bot Sandwich Reality
Jeremy introduces a concept that perfectly captures our new reality: the double bot sandwich.
We’re using bots (AI) to create content that other bots (LLMs) read and summarize for humans who asked other bots (ChatGPT) questions. “Chat GPT is now your most popular and least knowledgeable customer representative.”
This means our content needs to be:
- More explicit about value propositions
- Comprehensive enough for bot consumption
- Optimized for 30-40 word conversational queries instead of 2-4 word keywords
Skills Gap: Automation or Obsolescence
“If you’re not learning how to use N8n to daisy chain multiple commands, if you’re still stuck in the mode of I need to log in and edit this WordPress post, you’re probably going to lose in the arms race.”
The tools available to SEO professionals today would have seemed like science fiction just five years ago. The question is: Are you using them?
The content creators who thrive in this new environment will be those who can build workflows that scale, automate repetitive tasks, and focus human creativity on strategy and relationship building.
Testing in the Wild West of LLMs
One of the most sobering parts of our conversation was Melissa’s observation: “I see a lot of people claiming XYZ works for AI optimization. How does anybody know?”
Unlike Google, where we’ve had years to observe patterns and test theories, LLMs are:
- Rapidly iterating (GPT-4 to GPT-5, Claude updates, etc.)
- Giving different answers to the same queries
- Operating with unknown ranking factors
We need more data, more case studies, and more rigorous testing before we start selling “LLM optimization” as a solved problem.
The New Value Proposition: Capture Over Clicks
“The value in SEO is no longer the click. It is the capture of that user.”
This might be the most important mindset shift in our entire conversation. Success metrics need to evolve beyond rankings and clicks to focus on:
- Email capture and nurturing sequences
- Multi-touch attribution models
- Cross-platform user journey optimization
- Long-term relationship building vs. one-time traffic hits
Multi-Channel is No Longer Optional
“Multi-channel is more important than ever. Get on the truck, everybody.”
The days of being a Google-only SEO are numbered. Modern digital marketers need to understand:
- TikTok SEO – Yes, it’s a real thing and social media integration is crucial
- Bing/Microsoft ecosystem – Built into Windows, Co-Pilot integration
- Amazon SEO – Massive untapped opportunity for e-commerce
- Email marketing – Still one of the highest ROI channels
- LLM visibility – Understanding how to show up in ChatGPT, Claude, etc.
What This Means for Your Business
If You’re a Freelancer:
- Expand your skill set beyond traditional SEO
- Learn automation tools to compete with agencies
- Reposition your value around comprehensive digital visibility
- Start testing LLM optimization strategies now
If You’re an Agency:
- Audit your service offerings – Are you still selling 2015 solutions?
- Invest in team training on multi-platform strategies
- Update client education about the new search landscape
- Build testing frameworks for emerging platforms
If You’re In-House:
- Make the case for expanded digital marketing budgets
- Document the changes in your industry for leadership
- Start small tests across different platforms
- Focus on user capture metrics over vanity metrics
Looking Ahead: The Future of Search Marketing
As Google continues to prioritize AI overviews and LLMs become more sophisticated, the marketers who thrive will be those who:
- Think beyond Google and build comprehensive digital strategies
- Focus on user capture rather than just traffic generation
- Embrace automation while maintaining human creativity and strategy
- Test constantly across emerging platforms and technologies
- Measure what matters – lifetime value, not just clicks
Resources from This Episode
Guest Resources:
- Melissa Popp – Personal website
- Rickety Roo – Digital marketing agency
- Follow Melissa: @poppupwriter
Related Episodes:
Recommended Reading:
- Advanced SEO Strategies for the modern era
- Content Marketing SEO Integration best practices
- Conversion Optimization beyond traditional metrics
The Bottom Line
SEO isn’t dead, but it’s definitely not the same discipline it was five years ago. The professionals who recognize this shift and adapt accordingly will build stronger, more resilient businesses. Those who cling to the “Google reverse engineering” model risk becoming irrelevant.
The opportunity is massive for those willing to evolve. We have more tools, more platforms, and more ways to reach potential customers than ever before. The question isn’t whether change is coming – it’s whether you’re ready for it.
Want to dive deeper into these topics? Listen to the full episode and let us know your thoughts. Are you seeing similar shifts in your own SEO work? How are you adapting your strategies?
Connect with us:
- Jeremy Rivera | SEO Arcade
- Subscribe to Unscripted SEO for more unfiltered industry insights
Like this recap? Share it with your network and help spread the word about the evolving nature of our industry.